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Slicing The Internet to Bits
July 22nd 2004, 06:39 CEST by Jibble

Most advertisers in Florida don't care about customers in Ohio, so it's beneficial for many search engines and directories to localize their campaigns.  Both Verizon and Google have entered the pay-per-click model of local advertising, much to the benefit (and sometimes detriment) of consumers.  For Verizon, it's a no-brainer as providing listings in specific geographies is exactly what a phone book should do.  For Google, it's a bit trickier, as they are moving further into the portal style of browsing rather than relying only on their core search technology.  As the focus of the Internet on individual users narrows, what will the long-term effects be?  Do you prefer a Google with a zip code section in the search box to help your search?  What non-commercial applications of this would you like to see?
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#48 by Dumdeedum
2004-07-22 16:55:54
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Sounds like I can play the game after all then. Is there going to be a demo before release?

They say not, but it did go gold a few days ago now and it doesn't ship for just under two weeks, so unless they're too busy shooting rockets full of money up in the air you'd think they'd have time to whip up a demo.

#49 by LPMiller
2004-07-22 16:59:57
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
So glad I waited and bought NVidia


Why, it's not like any of those cards choked. And I'm sure after some driver updates, things will be closer.

I mean, I'm seeing a lot of lame forum posts about, Ooh, those guys that bought the ATI cards will feel stupid now, and guess this means people will start buying cards based on a game, and all I can think of is Whatever. And the cola wars start all over again.

Anyone who feels bad about buying one 500 dollar video card over another is pretty much too stupid to have money anyway.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#50 by The_Joker
2004-07-22 17:16:17
http://www.jackinworld.com
#47 You didn't close  your ad tags.

#49 Your common sense is lacking.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
The American government and its supporters suck cock. See Fahrenheit 9/11 and discover the truth.
#51 by LPMiller
2004-07-22 17:36:17
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
Yeah, not seeing you on the list of people whose opinion I give a shit about.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#52 by The_Joker
2004-07-22 17:41:17
http://www.jackinworld.com
You just got me on that list.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
The American government and its supporters suck cock. See Fahrenheit 9/11 and discover the truth.
#53 by MCorleone
2004-07-22 17:51:25
So glad because

"What is going to be surprising to many of you is that ATI's flagship Radeon X800XT-PE card has been outperformed by NVIDIA's GeForce 6800GT. This is not a fluke and it is a result you will see repeated throughout our results."


"At the upper end of the scale with AA turned on it starts to look as if the Radeon X800XT-PE may not be worthy of being included on the same graph as we see average performance fall close to the 30 frames per second mark. Certainly this is not something you would want to experience on your $500 video card."


"But not all is lost for the X800XT-PE as you can see when you drop the resolution down and bring the AA level up things start to look much more in line with the other flagship cards."


Yeah, I want to drop the resolution down on my new video card to play a game at acceptable framerates.  Great.

"The addition of the ATI X800Pro to the comparison really only points out how well our other cards are performing. It is painfully obvious that the Radeon X800Pro’s 4 missing pipelines are subjecting it to a big performance penalty with DOOM 3."


"Turning on 4X Antialiasing certainly does impact the frame rates by a good deal. If fact, judging by pure frame rate alone, we would have to say that the ATI X800Pro is giving an unacceptable level of performance while the rest of the three still stay above our imaginary 30FPS mark."


"As the resolution comes down, our cards’ frame rate performances start to look very similar with the exception of the ATI X800Pro. It seems as if the Radeon X800Pro is going to have a very hard time holding a candle to the 6800 series card and the great performance we are seeing from them."


"it looks as if ATI's decision to scale their current line of flagship video cards by crippling the Radeon X800Pro’s graphics pipelines to 12 pipes, instead of the 16 pipes of the Radeon X800XT-PE might have been a bad move, at least in terms of satisfying DOOM 3 players."


"Looking at the cream of the crop in video cards, it is painfully obvious that ATI is going to have to make some changes in their product line to stay competitive, at least with DOOM 3 gamers. There is no way for a $500 X800XT-PE to compete with a $400 6800GT when the GT is simply going to outperform the more expensive card by a good margin."


And from Carmack himself,

" it should be noted that some of the ATI cards did show a performance drop when colored mip levels were enabled, implying some fudging of the texture filtering."


So glad I waited and bought NVidia.

I have walked my way since the beginning of time. Sometimes I give, sometimes I take, it is mine to know which and when!
#54 by The_Joker
2004-07-22 17:54:15
http://www.jackinworld.com
See #50 RE: #49

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
The American government and its supporters suck cock. See Fahrenheit 9/11 and discover the truth.
#55 by Darkseid-D
2004-07-22 18:01:29
rogerboal@hotmail.com
So glad I'm not obssessed with the newest hardware anymore, means I wont get involved in pointless dickwaving discussions which can be summed up as "h4n h4n my n3w c4rd i5 f45t3r th4n urs, my 3p3n15 i5 n0w xbox hueg lollerskates"

I know my machine will run it decently enough, and I'm sure that a year or two down the line, any new hardware I put in my machine will make it run that much better.

In short, be happy with what you've got, consumer whores.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#56 by Penguinx
2004-07-22 18:03:08
I just wish the Xbox had a keyboard/mouse setup. Then I'd never upgrade my gaming PC again.

"No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair." -General George S. Patton
#57 by gaggle
2004-07-22 18:14:47
No entry found for lollerskates.
Did you mean pulsejets?

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
#58 by Dethstryk
2004-07-22 18:15:54
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Ds -

Is this before or after the processor/HT arguments? ;)

"The Square who is not Cool with the double dipping pecker!"
#59 by Darkseid-D
2004-07-22 18:43:06
rogerboal@hotmail.com
Deth, I'm not obsessed with it anymore, long gone are the days I had to have super fast hardware, latest generation video card and  trick and tweak it all out.   Now I'm more interested in the best performance for the least money.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Old age should burn and rage at the close of day.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
#60 by MCorleone
2004-07-22 18:44:26
Geforce6800GT

I have walked my way since the beginning of time. Sometimes I give, sometimes I take, it is mine to know which and when!
#61 by LPMiller
2004-07-22 19:00:49
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
All I'm saying is that when the new drivers come out, it will be closer. You act like it can run it at all. Not to mention that supposedly, the opposite is true on HL2. Who knows.  I ain't saying it's not a fair test, I ain't saying having the 6800 is a bad thing, I'm saying that article is making it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

Or, to quote the rest of the review:

As John Carmack said of DOOM 3 in our introduction, "all of the modern cards play the game very well."


For those of you that have not yet pre-purchased your copy of DOOM 3 because you thought your system would not be up to par and are not planning a system upgrade, you can now rest easy. I can now say with confidence, if you are playing any of the newer 3D games that have come out this year, the odds are that your system will provide a great DOOM 3 gaming experience in terms of IQ and video performance.


it's an oddly written article. The 6800 kicks some ass, the x800 not quite as much. Whoopie.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#62 by Shadarr
2004-07-22 19:03:31
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
" it should be noted that some of the ATI cards did show a performance drop when colored mip levels were enabled, implying some fudging of the texture filtering."


The real question is how well does it perform with all detail options turned off and a wallhack running?
#63 by Dethstryk
2004-07-22 20:05:25
jemartin@tcainternet.com
I'm going to look into upgrading my Ti4600 to a 6800GT. I'd love to before my pre-order comes in, but.. I don't know if I can spare out the $400 before then.

"The Square who is not Cool with the double dipping pecker!"
#64 by Charles
2004-07-22 20:09:38
www.bluh.org
Oh noes!

"I'm not asking for much; just a job that meets the minimum legal requirements set forth by my country."
#65 by Ashiran
2004-07-22 20:18:34
Seeing that this means I will have to upgrade my CPU soon...Are PCI-X boards already in the cheap part of the market?

"I intend to pay you for your idea...IN RAPE DOLLARS!"
#66 by Ergo
2004-07-22 20:22:54
Not yet.

Repeat after me--I AM SOFA KING WE TODD ED
DVDs
#67 by lwf
2004-07-22 20:25:34
ATI and NVIDIA seem to be taking turns making good/crappy cards. This cycle NVIDIA seems to have the better card, although it does require coal power. ATI's next card will probably be better than NVIDIA's, their product cycles are simply too short. Also: they're dumb.

My behaviour is addictive functioning in a disease process of toxic co-dependency. I need holistic healing and wellness before I'll accept any responsibility for my actions.
#68 by FoRmaT
2004-07-22 20:39:50
Is there a well done TC for Quake (anyone, got them all), with Doom music and all ? Please recommend one and if possible point me to where to look for it. Thankyous :) I googled, but couldnīt find anything.

Also, thereīs this movie I saw as a kid and I am desperately trying to remember itīs name. It was an animation movie in wich toys fought a war, and you kind of could see mass production of toy tanks etc. and it had propaganda speaches by some toy general... Donīt really remember very much, but it has been in my mind for some time and Iīd like to see it again. Any idea WTF I might be talking about?

Again, thanks!

"Uhm... it back-fired a bit. :( "  - Andy, 12/20/98
#69 by FoRmaT
2004-07-22 20:41:10
I meant "Doom TC" of course.

"Uhm... it back-fired a bit. :( "  - Andy, 12/20/98
#70 by Anonymous
2004-07-22 20:48:34
A post later, he'll tell us what movie he meant.
#71 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 21:01:04

All I'm saying is that when the new drivers come out, it will be closer.


Not quite as close as you might think, though I'm sure there will be some speedups.  Also, the HardOCP benchmark isn't really correct when they blame the reduced number of pipelines for the fact that Doom3 performs a lot better on Nvidia hardware.  The real win is that the newer GeForce FX cards can render double sided stencil volumes in one pass and have stencil volume clipping (what Nvidia goofily calls "Ultra Shadow", or whatever).  This isn't something you can add with a driver update alone and goofy name aside, these two things are huge speed wins for games that make extensive use of stencil buffer shadows (read: Doom3).  


You act like it can run it at all.


Yeah, that part is silly.  The ATI cards still do a pretty decent job, from everything I've heard; all indications are that even the GF3-era cards do a pretty good job as long as you don't want 1600x1200, FSAA.


Not to mention that supposedly, the opposite is true on HL2. Who knows.


True. Half-Life 2 is using a variation of old skool lightmaps for its lighting, but with some really clever volumetric tricks to make the lighting (somewhat, but not Doom3 level) dynamic.  Half-Life 2 is supposedly heavy on the shaders, where ATI still has some advantages, though the FX5950 and up really closed the gap compared to the rather subpar performance of the earlier FX cards.

In any case, the newer ATI cards will run Doom3 fine, if a bit slower, and the newer Nvidia cards will run Half-Life 2 fine, if a bit slower.

If you're the kind of person that needs external validation by way of your card rendering some game du jour 5-10% faster than some other person's card; well please kill yourself.

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#72 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 21:03:41
The last bit of my post was meant as a general statement, not directed to LPMiller, whom I mostly agree with in this matter.

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#73 by TheTrunkDr.
2004-07-22 21:05:38
Oh noes!

Now if you can only wrangle all those people to pay for the linux version up front!

Chop chop on that Linux and PS2 port already!

I kid cause I care.
#74 by Charles
2004-07-22 21:06:11
www.bluh.org
If I can get a solid 30FPS with full quality, but none of that AA crap, I'll be pretty happy.  I'm relatively sure I'll get that with my 9800pro.

"I'm not asking for much; just a job that meets the minimum legal requirements set forth by my country."
#75 by Charles
2004-07-22 21:06:37
www.bluh.org
At 1024, I should say.

"I'm not asking for much; just a job that meets the minimum legal requirements set forth by my country."
#76 by gaggle
2004-07-22 21:06:48
That was informative, thanks. ..uh, no snarkiness implied.

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
#77 by gaggle
2004-07-22 21:08:07
..to #71 dammit.

yeh I'll be happy with just 800x600 myself, maybe with a little AA.. but really if it runs without slowing down that'll be fine for me.

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
#78 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 21:16:02
Nvidia's recent history can pretty much be summed up by saying they've been building cards with Doom3 in mind.  Whether or not this sort of thing is a good idea is left as an opinion the reader can reach on his or her own.  And I don't mean to say Nvidia cards don't perform well on other games, or other cards can't play Doom3 well, but a few key design decisions Nvidia made clearly were Doom3 inspired.

As is often the case, though, technology moves on, and honestly I don't think stencil buffer shadows are going to be with us for all that long.

Most developers are now heading in the direction of using variations on precomputed radiance transfer and spherical harmonic for doing lighting.   Thank you Peter-Pike Sloan.  Your name may be teh ghey but your ideas are teh good.

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#79 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 21:17:26
er, harmonics

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#80 by mgns
2004-07-22 21:18:27
Yeah, that first thing didn't make any sense at all, but I get it now.

and who am I?
to dare to pull the stars from your favourite sky
#81 by gaggle
2004-07-22 21:25:20
I tried to understand Spherical Harmonics at a conference, but the guy made no fucking sense. He showed some sphere in a viewport, then hit a button and now it was a like a sphere that had fallen in on itself and clearly.. clearly that was an important difference. He added more dimensions or something and the sphere turned into four mashed circles.

Fruitfucker.

The technology might be plenty cool, but fuck if I know. Feel free to throw a lecture YF. ..well I guess I could read Mr. Sloan's .pdf on the harmonics thing. Looks like HDRI based lighting so far..

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
#82 by Ergo
2004-07-22 21:32:58
I run FPS games at 1024x786 so I expect Doom 3 to run just fine on my X800.

Repeat after me--I AM SOFA KING WE TODD ED
DVDs
#83 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 21:39:02
I'm not qualified to lecture on it.  I know enough to implement what P-P Sloan says will work, and it works.  It would take me a couple of weeks or so of math refresher to try to understand exactly why the functions and terms work the way they do.

There is a a PDF here that probably won't make non-math people's head's spin quite as much as the ones on Sloan's site.  Also it has pretty pictures.

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#84 by MCorleone
2004-07-22 21:57:53
Just for the sake of clarity, the Geforce 6800GT that I bought, that I'm touting, is a single molex connector / single slot design card.  This isn't the hulk that is 6800Ultra.  For 100MHz in RAM speed and 50MHz processor speed, two slots and two molex connectors is too much to ask.

I have walked my way since the beginning of time. Sometimes I give, sometimes I take, it is mine to know which and when!
#85 by coda
2004-07-22 22:28:56
http://fragged.org/
there has not been a quake TC in a long while  to really interest me in any way, other than possibly Urban Terrror, and even that is migrating over to ET soon... bring forth doom3 engine :)

Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing.
#86 by gaggle
2004-07-22 22:40:27
Will those deep dark shadows be much useful in anything but "ooh scary metallic hallways" atmosphere? To be fair I'm juding the dark shadows from the leaked playable thing, maybe they're not used anymore, but back then just about every shadow was horrible in their darkness.

Like how's it gonna look outside? Imagine a CS clone, it's a nice sunny bright day, terrorists running around willy nilly and then BAM!, hard ugly shadow up your ass.

Or is it capable of more?

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
#87 by jjohnsen
2004-07-22 22:45:59
http://www.johnsenclan.com
As long as I can play at reasonable quality with my 9700 Pro, there will be no upgrade for me. One game just isn't worth it.  If it runs like crap, I figure soon enough I won't be able to run anything anyway so I'll give in and upgrade.  I'd love to make it to 2005 still being able to run every game tht ships on my 9700.

Owner of the Planetcrap FFL team, the Utah Teen Brides.
#88 by Greg
2004-07-22 22:46:16
One molex connector for a video card is one too many for me, thank you.

Each hilarious punch line is received with a few hollow chuckles.
#89 by MCorleone
2004-07-22 22:54:28
Enjoy your yummy pong.

I have walked my way since the beginning of time. Sometimes I give, sometimes I take, it is mine to know which and when!
#90 by Gossip
2004-07-22 23:02:29
gossip@planetjumpgate.com http://G-Blog.net/user/Gossip
#56 Penguinx:
I just wish the Xbox had a keyboard/mouse setup. Then I'd never upgrade my gaming PC again.

I'm with you on that one.

Tu padre tiene mucho pelo en su pinga.
#91 by Greg
2004-07-22 23:07:00
Yeah, I've given up on needing the latest and "greatest" video card. I mean, PC gaming is dead and all that. The cheaper, saner cards do just fine for me.

Each hilarious punch line is received with a few hollow chuckles.
#92 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 23:13:58
Using stencil buffers, the shadows can be as dark or as light as you want them.  My guess is they are using ultra dark shadows in places for the fear effect.   I've seen some outdoor shots in the trailer/movies/screenshots and they look fine to me.  Very red, but hey.. Mars.

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#93 by lwf
2004-07-22 23:14:01
I'd have no issue buying a console that included a keyboard/mouse, AND supported high resolutions and had vga/dvi-out.

My behaviour is addictive functioning in a disease process of toxic co-dependency. I need holistic healing and wellness before I'll accept any responsibility for my actions.
#94 by lwf
2004-07-22 23:14:37
Mars is BROWN, like QUAKE. And POO.

My behaviour is addictive functioning in a disease process of toxic co-dependency. I need holistic healing and wellness before I'll accept any responsibility for my actions.
#95 by Your Friend
2004-07-22 23:14:51
Dude, you're getting a Phantom!

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#96 by lwf
2004-07-22 23:15:45
I don't want to have to download my games, and I don't want my games to suck. And I want my console to be a real thing.

My behaviour is addictive functioning in a disease process of toxic co-dependency. I need holistic healing and wellness before I'll accept any responsibility for my actions.
#97 by gaggle
2004-07-22 23:30:17
Well that last request is hard to argue against.

It was my understanding that the lights in Doom 3 can only be pitch black? Ie. one light placed behind a pillar will always cast a completly pitch black shadow. Infact nothing in the shadow even gets computed? To get non-blackness you throw in another light that illuminates what the first light doesn't.
I'm not trying to prove anything good or bad with the engine by making that distinction, at this point I'm just curious about the technology, since it was my understanding that the D3 stencil buffer shadows only allowed for blackness...

Uh I speak of the dynamic lights here btw, there are more ordinary fixed precomputed lights in D3 as well I guess?..

superman flying in the movies is a plot hole because there isn't any reasonable method of propulsion
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